July 1, 2008
Karen Sawyer with Cleve Backster:
1) How did you discover that human consciousness affects the outcome of an experiment?
Cleve: This was not discovered as much as common sense, where you could see that your thoughts as the experimenter were being picked up by the plants. Once you see this kind of communication existed, you are tied into the experiment rather than being “the impartial scientist.” Over a period of years, with hundreds of observations, this was born out.
2) During your research, you found that spontaneous actions/reactions and
intentions affected the plants and cells in your experiments far more
profoundly than ‘planned’ actions. Why do you feel this is, and what do
you feel this suggests about the nature of consciousness?
Cleve: The second part of that is a long discussion. The spontaneity – for example – is very effective. When we are doing a monitoring of plants, yogurt or cells, if the session is interrupted by a phone call, suddenly everything is spontaneous – the person on the phone has no planned interaction. When you are structured, planning what you want to say in order to sound intelligent, you are already communicating ahead of time. If you have pre-established opinions, etc. you are killing the spontaneity. Over a long period, I noticed the communication is apparently released by the imagery prior to the speech. It is the moment you think of something that is later communicated or acted upon. Primary perception is the vehicle that responds to those moments. Two people debating each other, when one thinks of a point to make, to “one-up” the other, that’s when we see a huge reaction. The follow-up, when they speak, there is not much reaction. This is based on hundreds of hours of observation.
3) It is interesting that you have discovered that plants and cells respond to our intention and experiences, yet we do not consciously understand theirs… Do you feel that we respond in some way, albeit subconsciously? Have you ever conducted the experiment the other way round to find out?
Cleve: I’ve had some people visit who were fairly psychic; who felt that they could receive messages from the plant. The plants easily can do this, but we don’t have that ease. If someone senses the plants’ alarm, they are likely sensing a radical change. There was a man, a chiropractor I believe, named Periakis, who would diagnose patients by having people sit next to a plant and watch the aura of the plant. He could see when he was touching on subjects that would be important in working out their problems. Once it got out that he was doing this, he’d always deny this after a while because he was bombarded so much with enquiries and doubts. This is something to pursue with more research.
4) Indigenous people the world over believe that EVERYTHING is infused
with Spirit – that there are other realms and dimensions that overlap
ours. They communicate with the plants, who share their medicines and
knowledge with them for our benefit. These people recognised that we are
all interconnected with every living thing. Why and how do you feel that
human beings lost this ability?
Cleve: A person who is eastern in philosophy would allow this. Those in shamanic cultures for instance, sometimes in a drugged state, get back in touch with the spiritual energies that are the creators with Mother Nature. Those indoctrinated with western religions and science would have problems accepting this. They side step it and focus on all these rules of science. It’s the so-called “science with proof” that draws people away from even trying to see what is there.
I had gone up to Findhorn in the early 70’s where they were growing huge vegetables in sandy soil, would talk to the bees, and it was considered normal to communicate with Nature. In the book, Kinship with All Life, J. Allen Boone, describes vividly his interaction with a famous dog, Rin Tin Tin, and with flies and all kinds of animals. Ancient Hinduism embraces this. I was invited to a meeting when I was the only person who was not a Swami. We were discussing “polygraph” and one of them said to me, “You mean ‘folly-graph’, don’t you?” Those people were very aware of the importance of my research.
Then of course, Luther Burbank, J.C. Bose, and George W. Carver were very tuned in. Each one contributed a great deal to humanity through listening to plants.
5) Have your discoveries affected the way you perceive life and how?
It tunes me into the Gaia principle: To get back into attunement with planet Earth, and to stop doing all the screwed up things we do to damage her. This principle is built on biocommunication, from the atoms and cells to the manifest components of earth, who communicate with each other in order to self-regulate.
6) Have you tried your experiments with plants and human interaction with GM crops? If so, do they behave differently?
No. But this sounds interesting. I can add it on to the list of things yet to be done.
7) You have been researching Primary Perception for 42 years… Has
mainstream science changed its attitude towards your research over the
years and how?
CB: Mainstream scientists as individuals will say very interesting things to me, like “You’ve changed my whole life!” But as a group, they act like protectors of the faith, and you don’t get them to go out on a limb. It could affect their grant requests that have to go by review committees, that are made of up of established, conventional scientists.
As I understand it, your discoveries have proven that thought/intention creates a response, not the action. Does this suggest that we must be mindful of the thoughts we think – i.e: that the damage is done when we think something terrible, not in doing the deed itself?
CB: Let’s back up a bit. I haven’t proven anything, in terms of scientific method which demands repeatability. But with the accumulation of independent, high-quality observations to date, I can feel strongly that negative thinking is directly in contact with millions of cells in the body, bypassing the nervous system. We certainly should be very careful of the quality of our thoughts. These thoughts may be picked up by sensitive individuals in the area.
9) What is your fascination with Giant Redwood trees?
CB: I’m impressed with the number of years they’ve been around. If we think of it as a large plant, we can safely speculate that these trees have a perception of what is going on in the area, and a long history. If we could somehow tap their storehouse of knowledge, these are awfully wise trees! I look at them as living beings who have been around so long that they dwarf human generations, in terms of insight. But this is just speculation at this point. I’ve tried, when I went up to HeartMath, with kits of pieces of Redwood trees, cultivated from roots. I didn’t have the funding to finish the working out of the technology that could make long term tracings. Now the instrumentation exists.
10) Do you consciously communicate with nature as a result of your work?
CB: Not as effectively as I should. I’m confronted with police officers every day still teaching polygraph. I’d like to move the lab closer to a natural surrounding.
11) Do you feel it would be possible to reprogram our DNA to reverse aging, combat disease, etc. by communicating with the cells in our bodies? Or, for that matter, that we could heal the earth in this way?
CB: Talk to my publisher, Franci Prowse. She is into that. Heal the Earth? That’s a short phrase for a very big project.
Many thanks for your time and warm wishes,
Karen Sawyer
From a longer interview in 2003:
Franci Prowse: What about dolphins?
Cleve Backster: I was interested in the ground-breaking work John Lilly did with dolphins. After all the frustrations of doing the tape recording of the underwater noises they made, which didn’t end up being extremely meaningful, I think Lilly finally determined to get rid of the wire and get a two-way communication going, mind to mind. That was courageous for a scientist. It may be more basic in the non-verbal or non-noise levels.
Franci: More soulful communication. Now we have the writings of your friend, Bobbie Sandoz, who wrote Listening to Wild Dolphins after living a long time with dolphins in Hawaii. She sums it up eloquently:
“Once we develop an awareness of conversations among species as well as between them, our universe becomes more animated and alive. When we also learn from new breakthroughs in quantum physics that we all share a unified mind, or common space where all of our thoughts and our consciousness live, we can see how easily these conversations can reach out and be overheard by others both nearly and far away. This understanding explains the claim people make that once you have swum with dolphins, other dolphins from different parts of the world will recognize you. It’s as if the dolphins use a telepathic link along the network of shared space for broader communication, and this same link may be what the whales use to communicate the song they will sing each year. Even before hearing this I had noticed that wherever I traveled, the dolphins and whales in each area seemed to greet me with recognition.”
Cleve: I remember that with Lilly’s work things started to happen when they learned to let the dolphins teach them, rather than other way around.
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